00:00 i was farming too little too late for the last half hour on my game 00:00 ###### TNNT 2024 IS CLOSED! ###### 00:00 FINAL TOURNAMENT STATISTICS: Games: 34010, Asc: 387, Scum: 24715. 48420234 turns, 1090918406 points. 536d 06:15 gametime. (28%Wiz), (49%Hum), (36%Cha), (55%Mal), 00:00 We hope you enjoyed The November Nethack Tournament. 00:00 Thank you for playing. 00:00 $time 00:00 nabru: 2024-12-01 00:00:04 UTC. The 2024 tournament is OVER! 00:00 furey: tsk tsk, if only those people had been just a little more insane maybe they could have gotten 275 :) 00:00 that's it 00:00 see you in 2025! 00:00 gg's all 00:00 gg 00:00 gg 00:00 <@post163> $lastgame 00:00 @post163: [US] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/l/lispwitch/tnnt/dumplog/1732934145.tnnt.html | [EU] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/p/post163/tnnt/dumplog/1733011017.tnnt.html | [AU] https://au.hardfought.org/userdata/t/tjw/tnnt/dumplog/1732874136.tnnt.html 00:00 gg all 00:00 K2: does the leaderboard update right at teh end of the tournament? 00:00 reminder, you can still finish out your existing games, you have one week 00:00 or do I wait 10 minutes for the final leaderboard? 00:00 ais523 it will here in a few seconds 00:00 (vibrating) 00:00 ah, does Croesus announce it? 00:00 on the hour + 30 sec 00:00 grats over achievers! 00:00 no 00:00 good November, everyone. It was fun 00:00 <@post163> gg everyone 00:01 ah, well it's past 00:00:30 now 00:01 existing games will not count of course 00:01 meh, this run is scuffed 00:01 and doesn't count anyway 00:01 ais523 give it a min, it has to run 00:01 loggers_viii: the practical limit is remembering to dot every "i" and cross every "t", such as quaffing to get to the planes, over a 200,000 turn hellgame 00:01 [US] [D]: nabru (Hea Gno Fem Neu), 996 points, 914 turns, killed by a bolt of cold 00:01 this late in the tourney, around :02 the board is fully updated 00:01 <@spider74656> Great Job all! Thanks to all the programmers and server-runners!! We couldn't do this without you! 00:02 yes thanks k2 and company, it's so much fun! 00:02 [US] haldisse (Val Hum Fem Law) had Mjollnir bestowed upon her by Tyr, on T:19051 00:02 <@HourglassMan> thanks for the tournament, was a lot of fun! 00:03 thanks, organizers! 00:03 K2: ah, OK 00:03 excited for the December dnethack tournament!! 00:03 <@post163> Thanks for the tournament! 00:03 -!- Noims has left #tnnt 00:04 anyway, time to reveal what I was secretly competing for: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/tnnt-2024-trophies.txt 00:04 maximum number of personal trophies 00:04 <@spider74656> there's a dnethack tourney?? Or is that said in jest? 00:04 junethack 00:04 why would I ever lie about such a thing :p 00:04 (yeah it's not real) 00:04 but tournaments focusing on one bigger variant would be super fun, too 00:04 december isn't a great month for a tournament 00:05 <@recuerdo> I am for real so disappointed that there's nothing to roll over to 00:05 <@recuerdo> I enjoyed beta and then TNNT 00:05 I can't wait for the evember evilhack tournament 00:05 run it in Undecimber! 00:05 i think variant tournaments might be fun if they were a week long instead of a whole month 00:05 the xevember xnethack tournament 00:05 <@cloudmillion> My favourite achievement this year was to read a fortune cookie without eating it 00:05 I mean tnnt IS a variant tournament 00:05 <@spider74656> yep, too many things going on in December & end-of-year wrap-up work for many people @ their RL work... 00:06 <@shadow_rider> a week lowkey not enough time to be winning some of these variants hothraxxa 00:06 <@spider74656> ^what Cloudmillion just said. 00:06 TNNT was slightly too short for me to do everything I wanted to do – getting the combos for the clan meant that I didn't get to try so much in terms of challenge runs 00:06 except for speedruns, because those don't take long 00:06 the problem is that tournaments require a shitton of prep and admin 00:06 I think tnnt was long enough for me and I spent a lot of time playing cards instead and now I regret it 00:07 I played in some bridge tournaments during TNNT and did very well in those too 00:07 <@spider74656> I believe I beat my last year's achievement count, but just barely. 00:07 I came second in a local tournament on Thursday 00:07 <@cloudmillion> Week isn't long enough for people to participate. For example I had my dad here for 2 weeks and couldn't play much just for that overlap 00:07 hah grats ais523 00:07 <@cloudmillion> Did I help 🤭 00:07 actually one thing I would like to see is something tournament-like that you can just play in whenever 00:07 ranked nethack 00:07 <@spider74656> Yes, Cloudmillion. Thanks! 00:08 there was deathrobin, which was a community unique deaths account that aimed to get *all* of them over the course of many years, that was fun 00:08 <@cloudmillion> Nethack speedruns are totally up for grabs 00:08 right, speedruns, multiconduct runs, personal all conducts, etc. can be done any time 00:08 and achruns can theoretically be done any time but you have to build TNNT locally 00:09 I am considering implementing a death uniquifier into NetHack itself, that uniquifies deaths a bit more strictly than TNNT does 00:09 <@cloudmillion> I like social hack as we call it. We have an open discord call and we just play nethack together 00:09 <@post163> I beat my achievement count from 2022 but died more often in the first 1000 turns. 00:09 <@spider74656> Next year I'll have a better laptop w/proper clicker buttons & a better keyboard, leading to better typing, leading to (hopefully) more achievements. 00:10 My personal goal was low score ascension, and I came in third, behind the two pacifists. 00:10 @post163: are you counting intentional first 1000 deaths there, or not? 00:10 careful about that spider, I broke both shift keys and s key on mine 00:10 <@cloudmillion> My personal goal was to ascend a new class for me, which I did 00:10 -!- charlie14690 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:10 <@spider74656> b/c I'm saving for a new one now, so I'll have it b/4 Win10 end-of-service. I'm going Linux@ 00:10 <@post163> I calculated by percentage of games that lasted 1000 turns - I am a ways from ascending. 00:11 my personal goal was top 10 on as many of the leaderboards I care about as possible, also winning the "most trophies" competition, both went pretty well 00:11 my goal was to get 10 ascensions but it morphed into getting the fastest run which I failed at 00:11 <@cloudmillion> I wish I could give challenges to other people and see if they can do it 😏 00:11 cloudmillion: how does that socialhack work? one players and a bunch of coaches? 00:11 I've got a USB external keyboard because of broken keys on this old toshiba. So that's one option. 00:11 -s 00:11 my goal was to ascend and i forgot about the one week extension, thus my last-minute suicide by tossing excalibur on the medusa level :p 00:11 <@recuerdo> RIGHT, I was thinking about, like, nethack bingo 00:12 nethack bingo is real 00:12 getting achievements unspoiled was pretty fun 00:12 <@post163> I am using an old USB keyboard since my computer does not have a numberpad. 00:12 <@cloudmillion> Sometimes we just play at the same time and chat about what's happening. This time we were watching finitelycraig get the ascension and just chatting about our games 00:12 robin: unspoiled on NetHack, or unspoiled on what the achievements are, or unspoiled on the best strategy to get them? 00:12 ais523, on what the achievements were 00:12 <@spazm9000> love seeing everyone hitting their goals this tnnt 00:12 <@shadow_rider> i was hoping our clan was going to do a single robin account and everyone had to play on it 00:12 <@shadow_rider> thought that would be funny 00:13 I want to stream NetHack at some point, but I will have to write the streaming software first 00:13 I came in with no goals so I can also proudly say I achieved all goals 00:13 <@cloudmillion> Did you have a goal? Sunsword-%? 00:13 ooh! I just realised you could circumvent clan limits with account sharing 00:13 i've watched some round robin nethack. it's hilarious sometimes 00:13 play the same account on different servers 00:13 I was willing to do that but all the people who I can actually communicate with aside from you and xdminsy joined over achievers lol 00:13 [EU] aoei (Val Dwa Mal Law) killed Orcus, on T:13337 00:13 <@spazm9000> my goal was getting a full monty 00:13 and xdminsy didn't play much 00:13 hothraxxa: I participated in a robin once, and ignored everything except armor, which I curse-tested in an attempt to find the best equipment 00:13 <@spazm9000> sunsword is an every day goal 00:14 maybe it will have to be loggers/shadowrider Robin if we do that at some point 00:14 <@shadow_rider> im down 00:14 <@shadow_rider> darn overachievers 00:14 <@shadow_rider> too good 00:14 anyway, I feel like these tournaments are more fun with cooperation than competition 00:14 -!- Loggers_VIII has quit [Quit: Client closed] 00:14 I think it'd be great to arrange the best players into two clans in such a way that they can both get NetHack Dominator 00:14 what's amusing is watching someone take over from someone with a completely different approach 00:14 [US] rebrane (Ran Elf Mal Cha) wished for "uncursed marker", on T:25347 00:14 <@cloudmillion> Policy of Splendor of Yendor is pretty much play and have fun 00:15 same for teamsplat 00:15 i think getting even one clan for nethack dominator is going to be a stretch (and i am thinking about it) 00:15 overall stats - https://tnnt.org/stats 00:15 <@spider74656> mine plan is to improve each year. I did so, but only slightly. Will do better next year! 00:15 Furey: there are enough players but getting them all to join clans in a way that makes it possible is a stretch 00:15 <@Loggers_VIII> if we do that next tnnt let’s do a practice robin ascension or two sometime before cuz I have never done one 00:16 <@shadow_rider> make the account right now 00:16 <@cloudmillion> @loggers_viii you could just join nethackathon... 00:16 <@cloudmillion> And stream it 00:16 "Ascensions 387; Games that completed Mines + Soko 568" 00:16 <@shadow_rider> id be curious to go for nethack dominator with clan but i dont think any clans ive joined have been interested 00:16 I think that really says a lot about NetHack's balance 00:16 <@post163> I only played 503 games out of 9487 non scummed games - a far cry from my 10k+ games in junethack. 00:16 ais523, I created 2 extra accounts in case someone showed up after the deadline on the 10th 00:16 <@shadow_rider> ive been mildly curious to go for it myself but i dont want to commit that that much time to it 00:17 crunchbubba6: I love hearing about these exploits 00:17 what does it say ais523? 00:17 [EU] aoei (Val Dwa Mal Law) polymorphed his first object, on T:13381 00:17 @shadow_rider: 73 wins is a lot, I wouldn't recommend trying to do it peraonslly 00:17 K2: that a significant proportion of games that can do Mines' End + Sokoban are won 00:17 <@Loggers_VIII> I dunno how to stream lol 00:18 I want to write some ASCII streaming software, complete with voice chat 00:18 streaming takes courage 00:18 roughly 2/3 00:18 that's what I was working on befoer TNNT 00:18 <@shadow_rider> i think if the player i am now played the amount of time i did during the covid tnnt 73 could get done 00:18 <@shadow_rider> luxi almost did that many once 00:18 everyone gets to see your gauntlets of fumble typing 00:18 lemme go pull up that luxi record 00:18 hothraxxa: they can do that anyway using hardfought's watchmode 00:18 but dominator is all conducts too 00:18 <@spider74656> Now that I know about NetHackathon, I'll do that next year too! 00:18 <@shadow_rider> yeah thats the problem 00:18 my most fun part this year was vault farming. I did it poorly, but was actually laughing 00:18 <@cloudmillion> That's called entertainment 00:19 I'm curious whether people were watching me this tournament, I used to get quite a few watchers 00:19 yes but they don't usually 00:19 i think we broke some records this year 00:19 <@spazm9000> nethackathon is a fun time 00:19 so it's 73 with some of those quite slow 00:19 will have to compare to past years 00:19 K2: most achievements in 1 clan is definitely a record 00:19 <@shadow_rider> i think the vanilla conducts would add that much time but some of the tnnt ones are a pain 00:19 more games were played on eu vs us and au (that's a first) 00:19 I think the TNNT conducts are generally easier than the vanilla ones 00:19 <@shadow_rider> *wouldn't 00:19 <@lunchbucket> ggs thanks to those that run this. Lots of fun to get back to nethack 00:19 lol, eitbo with "They're dead, Jim" 00:19 I got ingame mail, surprising the (encrypted) out of me, commenting on funny named weapon 00:19 how many of those were scummed, dunno 00:20 K2: be careful with that statistic, there was a lot of various types of scumming on EU 00:20 i know 00:20 just stating overall 00:20 [US] [D]: SludgeGunkman (Wiz Elf Mal Cha), 40 points, 242 turns, killed by a falling rock 00:20 crunchbubba6: now we must know the name 00:20 I was also grinding the games>1000 statistic by playing a lot of games that did 1000 turns of waiting and then died 00:20 <@shadow_rider> ais maybe some of them are harder but hallucination is going to drive me crazy while pacifist i could scum for a wish for example 00:20 Stabbity, for a dagger that I didn't want to get lost in the mix 00:20 <@post163> Unlike in junethack I did not scum any games - if I could not die on turn 1, I played normally until I died. 00:21 I don't think of permahallu as a TNNT achievement because it first came from NH4 00:21 [EU] aoei (Val Dwa Mal Law) wished for "marker", on T:13400 00:21 glad having you, pots 00:21 <@shadow_rider> and a lot of the individual vanilla conducts are trivial if you optimize everything else 00:21 ah good one. i often split my daggers into 1 as stabby and the rest are tosser 00:21 <@spider74656> wowzers! we collectively played almost 1.5 years in just 1 month! 00:21 maybe next year tnnt could be on 3.7 if it's ever officially released 00:21 @post163: I thought of you when I fell off my horse on turn 1 for unique deaths 00:21 wink/nudge ais523 00:21 post163: i noticed that 00:22 K2: 3.7 needs a lot of work, I will have to be in a good frame of mind to do that work 00:22 I do want to see if I can get in the right mental state to get 3.7 ready for next year's tournament, but I can't give any guarantees 00:22 https://hardfought.org/tnnt/archives/2020/players/Luxidream.html 00:22 64 wins, quite a good distribution, just eyeballing it 00:22 I am recovering from mental health issues that left me basically unable to program 00:22 devteam needs to set some goals, figure out which ones can go into 3.7 and which could be deferred to a later version 00:22 and release 00:22 <@shadow_rider> wheres the leaderboard for total time played during the tournament 00:22 <@shadow_rider> i wanna see that 00:22 <@cloudmillion> Ehh 3.7 is perfect ❤️ 00:22 we're going on 10 yrs 00:23 +1 k2 00:23 K2: so part of the problem is that there isn't much actual NetHack play in the devteam, so all the balance testing has to be either a) community players playing 3.7 on hardfought and b) me on my own 00:23 <@cloudmillion> @spazm9000 i knew it was you without looking lol 00:23 <@Loggers_VIII> me too lmao 00:23 Just make it so that liches in castle don't insta die and release as is 00:24 <@Loggers_VIII> I don’t think 3.7 will ever be to spazm standard 00:24 <@spazm9000> when tnnt moves to 3.7 it will kill my motivation to play 00:24 hmm, explain? I'm looking forward to 3.7 in TNNT 00:25 <@Loggers_VIII> spazm haaaates 3.7 00:25 <@cloudmillion> @spazm9000 you can still hoarde holy water in 3.7 just as easily 00:25 <@post163> The only thing I really dislike about 3.7 is the saving grace - though the saving grace is that I can try to make my steed gallop without dying to the 10-19 damage of a riding acccident. 00:25 it's worth noting that before TNNT 2023, I had barely played 3.6 00:25 <@Loggers_VIII> what about the cool new sunsword invoke?? :p 00:25 <@shadow_rider> i think i agree with spazm a little bit haha 00:25 <@spazm9000> im not a fan of a lot of the 3.7 changes 00:25 [EU] aoei (Val Dwa Mal Law) killed the invisible Dispater, on T:13837 00:25 @post163: OK, that made me laugh out loud, I hadn't thought of that side effect at all 00:26 [EU] aoei (Val Dwa Mal Law) killed the invisible Baalzebub, on T:13850 00:26 maybe it should take a few turns from the start of the game to become active? 00:26 <@spazm9000> it's just more memey 00:26 <@Loggers_VIII> a camera flash on an invoke timer is very funny 00:26 <@spider74656> 1 recommendation: I use a spreadsheet for price-ID'ng etc, & leaving myself notes of where my strategy was going, when I have to save+come back later. Maybe add a low-level text-editor function one can command, & scroll through one's own notes?? 00:27 <@cloudmillion> @spider74656 there's a website for that if you want 00:27 <@Loggers_VIII> yani: give all the banes an invoke that makes them instakill the next monster of the appropriate type that you hit 00:27 you can already add comments to your config file 00:27 you can name items to leave short notes to yourself – but price-IDing is a UI mess at the moment 00:27 <@cloudmillion> @spider74656 nethackathon.org/annotate 00:27 -!- Loggers_VIII has joined #tnnt 00:27 <@spider74656> Oh, I see. I could write my strategy notes there... 00:28 <@shadow_rider> loggers: demonbane instakill demogorgon heck yeah 00:28 <@spazm9000> im not a fan of a lot of the 3.7 changes <--- i'm not a fan of some of the changes either, but I think the pluses outweigh the negatives 00:28 <@spazm9000> 3.7 does have some things i like, but just too much i also really dont like, its more like a variant now than what i think of as nethack 00:28 variants are sool though 00:28 cool 00:28 @spazm9000 a lot of people used to say the exact same thing about 3.6 (vs 3.4.3) 00:28 <@Loggers_VIII> ok amy :P 00:28 in a way I agree with that sentiment – but, that is going to be inevitable to be able to move forwards with the game 00:28 <@spazm9000> variants *are* cool 00:29 <@spazm9000> but i want nethack 00:29 <@spazm9000> i played 3.4.3 for a long time 00:29 <@cloudmillion> @spazm9000 you're cool and cool people play 3.7 😎 00:29 but I think about it more in balance terms than in "more stuff" terms 00:29 if it's nethack from the official devteam, its not a variant 00:29 ^^^ 00:29 I was not a fan of 3.6's balance when 3.6 was released, and am still not really a fan of it now 00:29 now if I can only motivate to code some more 00:29 <@spazm9000> i dont care if its the official dev team 00:29 <@cloudmillion> I just find 3.7 to be more interesting and vibrant and I love the displacement of friends ❤️ 00:29 devteam doesnt care if you care or not :) 00:30 (i'm assuming, i cant speak for devteam) 00:30 [EU] aoei (Val Dwa Mal Law) averted death (killed by Vlad the Impaler), on T:14204 00:30 [EU] aoei (Val Dwa Mal Law) destroyed Vlad the Impaler, on T:14205 00:30 does 3.7 have show_weight? 00:30 [EU] aoei (Val Dwa Mal Law) acquired the Candelabrum of Invocation, on T:14206 00:30 I care to some extent, but there are a lot of players out there and they generally have contradictory opinions 00:30 <@spazm9000> i dont think they even know i exist lol 00:30 don't care which version of nethack tnnt is based on. i'm here for the fun of getting a team of people to do more then one person can. 00:30 NH 1.3 tourney! 00:30 <@Loggers_VIII> the “it feels like a variant” mindset is just silly 00:30 so I know that most chagnes are likely to offend some people 00:30 <@spazm9000> i dont think they even know i exist lol ← do you have me on ignore or something? :-D 00:30 @spazm9000, ais523 is part of the devteam 00:31 <@cloudmillion> No version can please everyone, I'm kinda hating on 3.6 😏 00:31 <@spider74656> I use show_weight in Slash'EM: it's great! 00:31 so is bhaak 00:31 peacefuls just don't want to kill you. they aren't friends 00:31 <@spazm9000> ok well ais knows i exist 00:31 just saying 00:31 i dont think there are any other devteam in this channel 00:31 <@Loggers_VIII> I can bet there were people complaining about the dungeon revamp all the way back in 3.1.0 because it wasn’t what they were used to 00:31 my main complaint is that devs tend to change stuff without thinking about the implications 00:31 although, sometimes they are right about that 00:32 <@cloudmillion> I think there are hieroglyphs that were discovered where @ points to a blue floating eye with lots of hate messages 00:32 I was very opposed to the reduction in early-game gold between 3.4.3 and 3.6 – I thought it would at least need a compensating change – but it turned out to be less of a problem than I thought it would be and may even be an improvement 00:32 <@cloudmillion> And in roman times people used to hate on the lack of wine in nethack, with all the fruit. 00:32 hey @post163 you have the very last game 00:32 \o/ 00:32 potion of booze 00:32 [US] haldisse (Val Hum Fem Law) genocided mind flayer, on T:19732 00:32 the booze in the gnome king's wine cellar is explicitly wine, I think 00:32 other potions are ambiguous 00:33 <@Loggers_VIII> compared to previous versions, 3.1.0 is a nearly totally different game content-wise. does this mean you have people calling it not NetHack? no, that’s silly 00:33 <@cloudmillion> See? That's because the romans complained about the early versions. 00:33 these days, I'm more a potion of hallucination kinda person 00:33 <@Loggers_VIII> in 20 years, no one is going to be calling 3.7 a “variant”, it’s just the nature of things 00:33 <@spazm9000> i will 00:33 <@spazm9000> if im still alive lol 00:33 <@Loggers_VIII> mark your calendars lmao 00:34 <@cloudmillion> @spazm9000 and we'll enjoy the entertainment that it gives 😏 00:34 cloudmillion: the romans would have had 3.7 out in a week 00:34 oh, I consider 3.4.3 and 3.6 to be, in effect, different NetHack variants 00:34 I should watch the zen and permahallu games, but too tired right now 00:34 <@spazm9000> happy to entertain! 00:34 <@spider74656> here's another ascension achievement one might add: ascend without ever quaffing Booze or Hallucinating. (Drug-free). 00:34 <@cloudmillion> Playing nethack on stone tablets was more difficult than you'd think hothraxxa 00:34 boooring, @spider 00:34 yes i remember 00:35 I suggested that early this tourny, I think: "Straight edge" 00:35 heh 00:35 @spider74656: that seems unfun to play, it's basically about either startscumming for Grayswandir, or playing blind so that you don't get hit by black lights 00:35 I need 3.7 for the mind flayers changes. I have never(?) used magic mapping though, so maybe that could help... 00:35 <@Loggers_VIII> I don’t like it, that would be mutually exclusive with the “quaff all harmful potions” achievement 00:35 [EU] aoei (Val Dwa Mal Law) genocided master mind flayer, on T:14520 00:36 <@spazm9000> mindflayers arnt even scarying in 3.7 00:36 [US] rebrane (Ran Elf Mal Cha) killed Scorpius, on T:26456 00:36 <@spazm9000> replaced by the terrifying shocking sphere lol 00:36 [US] rebrane (Ran Elf Mal Cha) acquired the Bell of Opening, on T:26470 00:37 one positive thing I can say about 3.7, is that I really like being able to sort discoveries listings in sortloot order 00:37 I am waiting to see how long it takes a) the community as a whole and b) the rest of the devteam to notice the changes to asc kits that are made in 3.7 as opposed to 3.6 00:37 <@spazm9000> displacing friendlies is a nice quality of life update though i will say 00:37 oh god, not you too, spazm? 00:37 nooo 00:37 <@spider74656> true, but if you price-ID Booze & keep your quiver reasonably full, it might not be impossible (though it'd probably require eliminating all foocubi as well). It'd add a family-friendly challenge for those who want to introduce their kids to the game. (no, I don't have kids. I'm just thinking of how to get more people in on the ground level of the game.) 00:37 the shocking sphere thing actually has an asc kit impact 00:37 <@stormofbeans> Without more items giving mr I don't see kits changing 00:38 peacefuls aren't your friends. they just don't want to kill you! 00:38 <@spazm9000> the scocking sphere thing just means i geno them every game 00:38 <@spazm9000> its dumb 00:38 the biggest thing i disklike (aside from the MF) is sokoban level flipping 00:38 there really is such a category as creatures that couldn't care less whether you live or die 00:38 ...and that category is PEACEFULS 00:38 <@spazm9000> ok maybe give me a 50% chance to go by them 00:38 <@spazm9000> say excuse me 00:39 <@Loggers_VIII> they’ve changed slightly, usually using blue dsm and water walking boots 00:39 @spazm9000: seriously, adapt your asc kit to have an extrinsic shock res source 00:39 <@Loggers_VIII> but not very meaningfully 00:39 you can say excuse me to peacefuls even in 3.6 00:39 using m and their direction 00:39 <@Loggers_VIII> blue dsm does protect from shock damage 00:39 <@spider74656> that works in 343, too. 00:39 <@stormofbeans> I personally don't see that better then speed boots and AoLS 00:39 not just blue dsm, you can now go without reflection if you have ring of shock 00:39 and do some other random dsm 00:39 yellow 00:39 right, the really big 3.7 change is that reflectionless has gone from "thing ais523 often does that probably isn't optimal" to actual optimal strategy 00:40 <@spazm9000> if you want more variety in asc kinds, more MR and reflection sources are needed, and roll back rodney quest art stealing changes to 3.4.3 00:40 -!- OmegaDino has joined #tnnt 00:40 if you have reflection in your late-game asc kit, and aren't a Caveman, you have probably screwed up your asc kit somehow 00:40 I had a game where I was juggling between three different builds as I went 00:40 <@stormofbeans> I agree, but I think Rodney should only steal quest artifacts that are not your own 00:41 -!- Furey has quit [Quit: Client closed] 00:41 rodney took the eye from my wizard and fucked up my never kill rodney ach 00:41 <@Loggers_VIII> it’s less a technical optimal thing and more convenience cause there’s fuck ton of lava and water in 3.7 00:41 @Loggers_VIII: reflectionless is technically optimal, I think; water-walking might or might not be 00:41 so no stealing quest artifacts 00:42 <@cloudmillion> I think 3.7 should come out so that people can have the tutorial. Lots of people want to try nethack but don't quite know how 00:42 the 3.7 asc kit has a lot more flexibility than the 3.6 asc kit, I am not sure what the ideal arrangement is and it might even differ from game to game in order to save wishes 00:42 <@Loggers_VIII> optimally I believe jumping > wwalking 00:42 I can believe that 00:42 [US] [D]: PigInZen (Mon Hum Mal Law), 2759 points, 2347 turns, killed by a priest of Huan Ti 00:42 ww for gehennom, jumping for astral 00:42 but I can also believe that wwalking is better due to knockback attacks 00:42 or what Arseniy said, right 00:42 you don't have to wear just one whole game if you have both 00:43 I feel like there's an interesting division in NetHack between "fixed-strategy" play where you know in advance how you plan the game to go, your asc kit, etc., and adapting to what happens during the game 00:44 I do both – I have fairly fixed valk strategies that work, but am also willing to adapt based on the game circumstances 00:44 I'm firmly in the latter camp cause I skip a lot of exploration and loot 00:45 part of the attraction for me is the latter camp 00:45 Arseniy: oddly, my low-resource games are further towards the former side 00:45 <@spider74656> I'm in the latter camp too, but I do full-exploration & packratting+stashbuilding. Haven't gotten to the quest often enought to really build my strategy preferences. 00:45 <@stormofbeans> What sort of flexibility do you see? When playing 3.7 I pretty much go for the same stuff I do now 00:45 if I am speedrunning I can't rely on finding basically anything useful at all, so I have to scrape together a strategy using guaranteed items 00:46 <@spazm9000> yeah my 3.7 kits are basically the same as 3.6 00:46 https://www.reddit.com/r/nethack/comments/1h3r0ee/tnnt_2024_is_over_sad_face/ 00:46 @stormofbeans: so in 3.4.3 and 3.6, reflection late-game is primarily useful for stopping item destruction attacks, as you have elemental resistances to stop the damage 00:46 TNNT is over. long live TNNT 00:47 \o/ 00:47 <@stormofbeans> Black dragons are around too though 00:47 but, 3.7 adds new mechanics to prevent item destruction, e.g. a ring of shock resistance will protect your rings and wands from lightning, *and* it also adds new item destruction sources that aren't reflectable 00:47 you can geno black dragons, or just wear a shield which gives you enough warning 00:48 actually, the most commonly problematic reflectable attack late-game is floating eye gaze :-D 00:48 <@stormofbeans> That's true but I'd rather Geno shocking spheres 00:48 <@cloudmillion> @spazm9000 50 potions of holy water, a Sunsword and what else? 00:48 <@stormofbeans> Then at least I can wear GoP 00:49 become truly enlightened, wear GoP and don't genocide shocking spheres 00:49 <@cloudmillion> The nerfing of unicorn horn has been the best 00:49 I don't like the flavour behind that change but I'm fine with the gameplay 00:49 traditionally unihorns are supposed to cure poisoning, now in 3.7 they cure everything except poisoning :-D 00:50 @cloudmillion I agree, although I like being able to reset attributes easily with 3.7 I pay a lot more attention to nutrion stats and weight. 00:50 unicorn horns were always overpowered, but it makes me a little sad for them to feel less overpowered :p 00:51 it makes paying attention to attributes actually matter which is good 00:51 <@cloudmillion> It's just too easy to reset everything with a unicorn horn 00:51 yes, that was a good balance change 00:51 so they don't make you "feel great" anymore? 00:51 <@cloudmillion> Also finally there's a use for restorw ability potion 00:51 tinklebear: nope 00:51 gives restore ability book and potion actual utility 00:51 there goes the cigarette analogy 00:51 potion of restore ability is good in 3.6 for lost levels 00:51 <@spazm9000> restore ability is already the 3rd best potion 00:52 hey so on my last TNNT game (Valk) I was deciding between twowep, and Excalibur+Shield of Refl (went with the latter) 00:52 it occurred to me that "shield bash" should be a possible skill to train 00:52 is it? just don't lose levels 00:52 it's amazing if you do the prot drain and regain trick 00:52 (and yeah, I think it's for the best that restore ability isn't useless anymore) 00:52