00:07 <NetSysFire> no, ernie is hot
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00:18 <tinklebear> :D
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00:36 <Furey> The door closes.  It explodes!  You seem unaffected.
00:36 <Furey> -- takes more than that to affect my savoir-faire.
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00:59 <K2> $who
00:59 <Croesus> K2: [EU] No current players | [US] tinklebear shadowcat Furey oh6 rebrane | [AU] No current players
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01:06 <tinklebear> « The boulder fills a pit. Achievement unlocked: "Liberated
01:06 <tinklebear> ". The iron ball gets buried! »
01:08 <tinklebear> ^ It is a little weird to achieve "liberated" on that turn, since I am still chained to the buried ball at that point.
01:08 <tinklebear> ...but after a few turns of struggle, yeah
01:37 <tinklebear> $time
01:37 <Croesus> tinklebear: 2024-10-26 01:37:58 UTC. 2024 Tournament begins in 5d 22:22:02
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03:45 <karafruit> #chatting Izchak while hallucinating doesn't seem to give the achievement--not sure if intentional since it's not his usual dialog?
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08:43 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> At what level range can the swapchest generate?
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09:13 <Arseniy> dl10 to dl13 in the mines and dl26 to dl30 in Gehennom
09:31 <joes> $time
09:31 <Croesus> joes: 2024-10-26 09:31:28 UTC. 2024 Tournament begins in 5d 14:28:31
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09:41 <Furey> dictyostelium: one swap chest at bottom of gnomish mines. second swap chest in valley of the dead.
09:47 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> Thanks, @arseiy gave me the ranges as well: -))
09:49 <Furey> oh i didn't check backscroll first ... arseniy ftw!
10:00 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> Thanks, @arseiny gave me the ranges as well: -))
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10:45 <joes> wtf, this is the third trapdoor that takes me to MT
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12:50 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> $lastgame joes
12:50 <Croesus> @Dictyostelium: [EU] https://eu.hardfought.org/userdata/j/joes/tnnt/dumplog/1729935311.tnnt.html
12:50 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> jup  ^ found your bones
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12:59 <joes> @Dictyostelium ah, those
12:59 <joes> my soko zoo has 4 elflords o_O
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14:07 <karafruit> oh hey, a Dictyostelium ghost! so many bags O.O
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14:32 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> which one ? 🙂
14:32 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> i only blew up 1 bag tday, not 2 like yesterda
14:32 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> so that's an improvement :p
14:32 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> i only blew up 1 BoH today (put bag of tricks in bag i that thought was normal), not 2 like yesterday
14:32 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> i found yours just now.
14:33 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> $lastgame karafruit
14:33 <Croesus> @Dictyostelium: [US] https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/k/karafruit/tnnt/dumplog/1729948948.tnnt.html
14:33 <karafruit> the one that had two bags of holding, lol
14:33 <karafruit> killed by a dwarf
14:33 <karafruit> ooh which one of mine did you find?
14:33 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> ok not this one
14:33 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> looking
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14:34 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> killed by a snake while praying
14:34 <karafruit> ooh I vaguely remember that one
14:35 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> i only see two dumplogs? but doesnt matter,w ill first try to survive, check later 🙂
14:36 <karafruit> https://hardfought.org/userdata/k/karafruit/tnnt/dumplog/1729877570.tnnt.html
14:36 <karafruit> ooh, my foodless attempt with a horn of plenty, lol
14:36 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> hmm, might be  challenging, thinklebear's ghost is on there too
14:36 <karafruit> ah yeah, was gonna say I thought someone mentioned seeing that bones earlier
14:36 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> Nope, that was an earlier one? this is in the main dungeon branch.
14:37 <joes> I found tinklebear's ghost hovering over a hole in the MT temple. The priest was elsewhere
14:37 <karafruit> but it was killed by a snake while praying? that's the only one I see where I died like that in the xlogfile
14:38 <Furey> dang this beta is great, i got "4 beta" achievement for the first time ever in tnnt
14:38 <Furey> ... "4 bones" achievement
14:39 <karafruit> the 4 beta achievement, nice
14:39 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> > karafruit-Wiz-Gno-Fem-Neu, killed by a snake, while praying.
14:40 <karafruit> but it's not in the mines? biZZARE
14:41 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> indeed. must be misnaming =bug and be tinklebear's,bc his gost was there => will check dumplogs
14:43 <karafruit> uggh all I want is an elf corpse to convert this altar, is that so much to ask? :<
14:45 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> indeed. must be misnaming =bug and be tinklebear's,bc his gost was there => will check dumplogs
14:45 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> => its this one:
14:45 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/t/tinklebear/tnnt/dumplog/1729897121.tnnt.html
14:47 <karafruit> huh, really weird
14:56 <joes> ah, sweet 3.6 where monsters don't wake up screaming and unihorns restore stat loss
14:59 <Furey> beta session (all players together) up to 297/328 achievements
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15:06 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> aah it IS that one, 
15:06 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> but i just passed by there earlier and retraced my steps. will investigate, TY
15:08 <joes> I didn't know boulder traps could be diagonal
15:09 <Umbire> sure can
15:10 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> aah it IS that one, 
15:10 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> but i just passed by there earlier and retraced my steps. will investigate, TY
15:10 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> been here 3 times now; nostalgia 😄
15:10 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> TIL player ghosts can escape through holes??
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15:11 <[> why did you repeat the same 2 messages twice?
15:11 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> me? i didnt? => ah probably edit == repeated on APP?
15:11 <joes> editing on discord sends it again
15:11 <joes> app = IRC bridge
15:12 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> Does the IRC see the emoji added to posts? probably not?
15:12 <karafruit> no
15:12 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> ok, ty.
15:12 <Umbire> Client-specific
15:12 <Umbire> Mine sees emoji just fine
15:12 <[> 15:10 <+rld> <@Dictyostelium> been here 3 times now; nostalgia 😄
15:12 <karafruit> dictyo meant reactions
15:12 <[> if you mean this emoji, yes
15:12 <Umbire> oh then no, no reactions
15:13 <rld> <@Dictyostelium> no, i ment discord emoji responses
15:20 <aosdict> Furey: you can't fully trust the achievements in beta if any were inserted into the middle, but I'm not sure any have been yet
15:21 <Furey> hmmm i suppose i should check that the in-game achievements command has exactly the same number as the web site, because if i understand correctly, those are parallel lists, not a unified list
15:23 <aosdict> they're the same list, but if new achievements are added in the middle during beta and the site is updated with those new achievements, old games will have their achievements shifted
15:23 <Furey> ho
15:23 <Furey> oh
15:23 <aosdict> why are we talking about pokemon now
15:24 <aosdict> :P
15:27 <Furey> i was looking at https://github.com/tnnt-devteam/python-backend/commit/4b7aa2362e962ca9b836675de06d7a3fe4450bab which clearly shows a second list in achievements.yaml separate from the C code, but ofc you make achievements.yaml by running ach_to_yaml.sh, not by hand editing
15:28 <aosdict> initially the achievements were hand edited, but by now we ironed out the process to having a single source of truth in tnnt_achievements.h
15:29 <Furey> well, i can verify that in-game achievements reports 328, and player pages on tnnt.org report 328, so someone ran the script to propagate the truth from the single source.
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15:29 <aosdict> yeah that's what K2 did in the commit you linked
15:30 <Furey> not that it was ever in doubt except in my own head. i see two parallel things, i verify 'em.
15:31 <K2> :P
15:31 <aosdict> but my point was, if you have a game from october 12 where you earned achievement #200, and then on october 20 we add achievement #153 between 152 and 154 and update the website, the xlogfile still says you earned achievement #200 
15:32 <aosdict> even though "old achievement 200" is now 201
15:32 <aosdict> beta!
15:32 <aosdict> all this to say, expect achievements to get messed up when I add some soon
15:32 <Furey> i see, they don't match by name
15:33 <aosdict> in order to match by name we'd have to actually put the names in the xlogfile and that would be way too many strings yeah
15:33 <Furey> caused me lots of annoyance when i was writing up plans and referring to historical records from 2023, 2022
15:34 <K2> this is why we dont add new ach during the actual tournament
15:34 <aosdict> well, within the actual tournament, achievements should be consistent
15:34 <K2> before/after, no big deal
15:34 <aosdict> they just won't necessarily be consistent year to year
15:34 <Furey> right
15:35 <karafruit> new achievements coming soon? 👀
15:36 <K2> new achievement: did not earn any achievements
15:36 <aosdict> karafruit: yes
15:36 <K2> 🤔
15:36 <aosdict> finally getting some "identify tools" achievements, tame a rider, kill enough puddings to make a large glob
15:37 <aosdict> K2: achievementless conduct would probably be pretty tough
15:38 <aosdict> you wouldn't be able to kill more than 25 different types of monsters for one
15:38 <K2> aww did no one get the joke?
15:38 <K2> read it again
15:38 <Furey> aw man, ofc some of the vanilla achievements are mandator
15:38 <Furey> y
15:38 <K2> not that
15:39 <karafruit> we got your joke, K2, it just wasn't very good ;P
15:39 <aosdict> you wouldn't be able to enter a treasure zoo, so no sokoban for you
15:39 <Furey> you could make a leaderboard for "ascensions with fewest achievements"
15:39 <aosdict> *sokoban prize
15:39 <K2> karafruit you make me sad
15:39 <karafruit> well sokoban prize is an achievement in itself anyway
15:39 <K2> you're no longer in my nethack will
15:39 <karafruit> oh no
15:39 <K2> :P
15:40 <karafruit> next time I find a bones file from K2 there's just... nothing there
15:40 <aosdict> you could technically do the castle without either learning the passtune or blowing up the drawbridge
15:40 <K2> YANI: players can make a will, and bequeath their belongings to just that player
15:40 <K2> *a player of their choosing
15:40 <aosdict> I want to bequeath my pile of zorkmids as evenly as possible across all nethack players
15:40 <K2> YANI should be a YASI
15:41 <karafruit> aww man, I can't eat cockatrices for my no-achievement run? sadness.
15:42 <Furey> "rtq survivor" conflicts with "insert quarter". have to receive quest to win game, and hero is either a survivor, or has had a life-save.
15:43 <karafruit> fixed by 3.7--can kill quest leader to get into quest. :D
15:43 <Furey> also hard (if not impossible) to avoid "enter a graveyard"
15:43 <karafruit> (though that would probably also be an achievement, tbf)
15:44 <karafruit> speaking of killing peacefuls, my pet demilich is very intent on fighting shopkeepers :<
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15:44 <aosdict> hmm "enter a temple" is not an achievement so you won't get one going through the votd
15:48 <Furey> i suspect 0-ach would be impossibly difficul without luck manipulation, but minimum-ach leaderboard would make players wrack their brains.
15:48 <joes> wow, 14x4 deli with two iceboxes
15:49 <karafruit> yeah minimum achievement leaderboard would be neat
15:50 <karafruit> would have to be ascensions-with-min achievements, presumably
15:51 <joes> I swear I have seen double bones before getting the achievement for it
15:51 <joes> now who has the fire wand
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16:12 <joes> aha, this is a bag of holding after all, I'm only carrying too much heh
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16:32 <tinklebear> K2, you should name your no-achievements achievement "Russell's achievement"
16:32 <ais523> I missed the start of the conversation – is that an achievement for ascending without other achievements?
16:32 <ais523> that seems more like a conduct than an achievement, it would be very difficult
16:33 <K2> it was a joke
16:33 <ais523> incidentally, I think the "ascended without killing X" things should be achievements rather than conducts
16:33 <tinklebear> 11:37 <K2> new achievement: did not earn any achievements
16:33 <K2> getting an achievement for not getting any achievements. but you just got an achievement
16:33 <tinklebear> it's a good one!
16:33 <K2> it's impossible :)
16:34 <ais523> they're very different in nature from the other conducts, and kind-of disproportionately impact the most-conducts leaderboard because most of them can be achieved via the same techniques, and it's worth disproportionately more than the other conducts
16:35 <aosdict> ais523: a major principle of achievements is no achievements should be "game ends and X condition is met"
16:35 <aosdict> it might be reasonable to keep them as trophies, but drop them as conducts
16:36 <aosdict> (conducts according to the scoreboard)
16:36 <ais523> oh, trophies might work
16:36 <aosdict> I mean, they are already trophies
16:36 <ais523> I meant, as being only trophies
16:37 <aosdict> but as trophies it just matters whether you did it once over the tournament, so it does lose the information of if this is a challenge you did a lot in multiple games
16:38 <ais523> it doesn't seem like an interesting thing to try for in multiple games?
16:38 <ais523> fwiw I'm not sure they're interesting to try for even in a single game
16:39 <ais523> even though I did end up (indirectly and accidentally) inventing them
16:39 <Furey> i think "keep xxx alive" works very well as trophies as it currently is, but that the "max conducts in one game" is out of balance, both with these conducts and with foodless counting as three separate conducts
16:40 <ais523> (for either AceHack or NH4, possibly both, I didn't want to add an xlog-style achievements field for reasons I can no longer remember, so I synthesized one using information that the game was already tracking – part of that is which monsters you killed, so I used kills on particular important monsters as a substitute for achievements – and then that ended up being negated and used as a Junethack trophy)
16:42 <aosdict> it's also possible that ascending without killing some guy was new and impressive 8-10 years ago, but by now the techniques have become more widely known
16:43 <ais523> isn't it just "polyself into nymph and steal the important item"?
16:43 <ais523> apart from the Riders, the technique is different with those
16:43 <ais523> and Rodney's respawns (as opposed to the initial fight)
16:43 <aosdict> well as my junethack planes splat can tell you, that tactic does not work so great for the wizard
16:43 <ais523> those are more about surviving because you don't need to steal anything
16:45 <ais523> anyway, the AceHack achievement flags were only intended as positive milestones (the player character has got far enough in the game to kill the specific monster), and I hadn't ever intended for them to be negated and used as conducts, but you know what the NetHack community is like :-)
16:46 <aosdict> In tnnt killing the wizard is not interesting, you must kill him 20 times! or twice in one action! nothing lesser shall be tolerated
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16:49 <tinklebear> (it may be a joke to you, K2, but your joke made Gottlob Frege cry)
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16:55 <K2> good
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17:36 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> The 20 wizard kills thing is lame. you just hang around for a long time
17:37 <ais523> well it'd be beyond what most of my characters could manage
17:37 <ais523> they often start strugglign around 5 or 6
17:39 <aosdict> containerless conduct is one thing that's been proposed
17:39 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> kid named stormbringer:
17:39 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/503281133438369792/1299789483633410128/IMG_9455.webp?ex=671e7ac9&is=671d2949&hm=4f236a4af047612158e713277f30cd81ed7dd6b0fcfa9ef5c8b2317340e0c748&
17:41 <joes> phew, archlich shapeshifted into a gold golem
17:42 <joes> @Loggers_IX who is that?
17:45 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> Mike ehrmantraut from breaking bad. it’s a semi-recent meme reference so I think it was a blunder in a NetHack channel :p
17:45 <joes> lol, haven't seen breaking bad
17:48 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> it’s excellent but it’s a bit of a time commitment
18:03 <tinklebear> (like nethack, in that respect)
18:04 <tinklebear> would containerless simply mean you can't #loot containers?
18:05 <tinklebear> would breaking statues count against you?
18:05 <tinklebear> (and I guess no tipping, either...but I never tip anyways)
18:06 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> I think the conduct would probably be to never put anything IN to a container
18:06 <tinklebear> would *creating* statues count against you?
18:07 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> so basically no bags or box stashes
18:07 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> you’re stuck with however many inventory slots there are
18:07 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> 52?
18:08 <joes> plus gold and loadstone
18:08 <tinklebear> I kind of get the idea. but statues are a corner case, and I think the details are significant
18:08 <tinklebear> could be, anyways
18:08 <joes> I can't tell if this is serious or not
18:09 * tinklebear is always mostly serious
18:09 <joes> statues are at least coded as containers 
18:09 <tinklebear> yes
18:09 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> I don’t think statues really matter. the point of the conduct as I’ve seen it played is inventory management
18:10 <joes> then no taking out would make more sense
18:10 <tinklebear> I once ascended with an artifact that would have been impossible to carry, but it was inside a stoned housecat, iirc
18:10 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> why? then you wouldn’t be able to loot boxes
18:11 <tinklebear> *impossible for my character, under their conduct, to carry
18:11 <joes> artiless?
18:11 <tinklebear> atheist, and the artifact was cross-aligned neutral
18:11 <tinklebear> the Eye, iirc
18:11 <ais523> how does containerless interact with the swap chest?
18:12 <joes> Loggers: I guess it's more about carrying containers
18:14 <ais523> fwiw, I have ascended containerless under a "no carrying containers" definition (I used the Castle wand)
18:14 <tinklebear> Loggers: not being able to loot boxes at all would raise the significance of the accomplishment
18:14 <ais523> my inventory at the end was mostly wands, IIRC, as I couldn't keep scrolls and potions safe
18:15 <tinklebear> but yeah, ais523, did you loot boxes/chests on that run?
18:15 <ais523> yes, Castle wand
18:15 <tinklebear> ah.
18:15 <ais523> can't remember about the others, it was 3.4.3 so wouldn't have had a major impact
18:15 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> tinklebear: of course it raises the challenge, but that’s just not how I’ve seen it played. It would be more of an emergent challenge I guess
18:16 <tinklebear> did you, ais523, otherwise only stash things on the bare floor or something?
18:16 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> it’s not a huge deal though since boxes are whatever
18:16 <ais523> tinklebear: I can't remember, I may not have had much of a dedicated stash because potions and scrolls take up a lot of weight and I couldn't really use them
18:17 <tinklebear> interesting. thanks, ais523
18:17 * tinklebear is still trying to get a sense of the concept
18:17 <ais523> with the dwarvish cloaks in 3.7, scrolls and potions might be a little more viable but 90% protection probably isn't enough
18:20 <tinklebear> Loggers: so in your view boxed stashes are not off-limits?
18:21 <tinklebear> would carrying an empty container comply with the conduct?
18:21 <joes> look, now you're trying to break the rules
18:21 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> my ideal version of the conduct would be not being able to place things in containers, but you could still take things out of chests for example
18:22 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> NetHack players love trying to break rules
18:22 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> I think it could also be fun if you weren’t allowed to take stuff out, but I just like looting chests lol
18:22 <tinklebear> :D
18:23 <joes> and NH loves to hit you with stupid rules like no carrying containers even if they are empty
18:23 <tinklebear> I know! sometimes it does!
18:23 <tinklebear> :D
18:23 <[> ais523: that's not containerless, that's containercarryless
18:23 <ais523> the castle wand is in a container, that makes precise containerless definitions very important
18:24 <tinklebear> en-statued spellbooks are as well
18:24 <joes> isn't carrying containers the point of this? The rest depends on the exact condition
18:24 <tinklebear> I'm not sure it is, joes. I'm still muddling through here
18:25 <joes> castle wand should be allowed, preferably not exceptionally
18:25 <joes> couldn't you just smash the box?
18:25 <tinklebear> not in evilhack, you couldn't
18:25 <[> I don't think that's possible
18:25 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> containerless has been played before and it’s usually been an exercise in inventory management
18:25 <[> you can't smash boxes in a way that their contents ends up on the floor
18:26 <[> you can #tip maybe
18:26 <tinklebear> my usual play includes placing boxes/chests in very particular spots...
18:26 <tinklebear> so that I can stash things there
18:26 <rld> <@Loggers_IX> you can force with a staff or something right?
18:26 <joes> [: I didn't think they go directly into your inv
18:26 <ais523> stair-stashes really aren't as bad as people think they are
18:27 <joes> loggers: blunt weapons at least, if not all non-edged-weapons
18:27 <ais523> I make them quite frequently, and it rarely goes wrong
18:27 <[> Loggers_IX: that forces the lock and maybe breaks items inside, but the item is still inside the (now unlocked) container and you still need to #loot or #tip to get it out
18:27 <ais523> (you stash next to the stairs and immediately leave the level)
18:27 <[> maybe you could get a gelcube to eat the castle chest, then kill it to get the wand
18:27 <joes> ais523: you're speaking from my heart
18:27 <[> if the wand is not made of a gelcube-edible material
18:28 <[> ais523: stair-stashes would be less bad if #find existed
18:29 <ais523> it is very hard to implement – I gave up and had to let FIQ do it
18:29 <joes> [: I would count that as part of the conduct. It's your own fault if you create a gelcube
18:29 <[> joes: it's the only way to get the wand if you can't #loot or #tip containers
18:30 <[> and monsters can't loot them for you, as in 3.6
18:30 * tinklebear believes that gelcubes that eat a container do not eat any of its contents, regardless of material
18:30 <joes> that's right
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18:33 <tinklebear> not being able to use containers is a bit of an interface screw, because with #pickup you cannot pre-select the item class
18:34 <joes> I don't understand. What's the problem? Do you mean autopickup?
18:35 <ais523> joes: it's like the difference between i and I
18:35 <ais523> with I you get a separate menu to choose item class, first
18:35 <ais523> , and #loot differ in the same way
18:36 <tinklebear> every time you pick something up from a stash-square, you'll need to page through everything on the floor even if, say, you only wanted to select a few potions or something
18:36 <ais523> item menus have a lot of functionality
18:36 <tinklebear> (yes, there is the search function)
18:37 <tinklebear> but being able to selectively *view* things is useful
18:37 <tinklebear> ie, being able to selectively *not* view things is useful
18:38 <karafruit> we just need to invent a capital comma, ezpz
18:38 <tinklebear> that would do it for me, karafruit
18:38 <tinklebear> :D
18:38 <[> capital comma = shift + , = <
18:38 <karafruit> (and before someone "but < is a capital ," no, that's shift + comma, not a capital comma"
18:39 <karafruit> ....ok AFTER someone says it
18:39 <ais523> m, is already a special case
18:39 <ais523> so maybe M, should be the item-class-menu version
18:41 <karafruit> what does m, do?
18:43 <aosdict> containerless if implemented as a conduct would probably be no-putting-items-in-containers
18:43 <ais523> it's like , but will show a 1-item menu rather than unconditionally picking up a single item
18:43 <aosdict> you can pick them up and move them around, fine. you can loot containers that are already there, fine. but you can't put stuff in them
18:43 <aosdict> which also means no swap chest
18:43 <karafruit> ohhhh, super useful for picking up part of a pile of a single thing, nice. I mean I know you can do like 20, or whatever, but I ran into that issue with gold in a shop once
18:44 <tinklebear> 'm,' does not work that way for me in current tnnt game, ais523
18:44 <aosdict> tinklebear: tnnt isn't 3.7
18:44 <ais523> hmm, it may not be implemented properly everywhere
18:44 <ais523> I will have to check 3.7
18:44 <tinklebear> ah. I see, aosdict
18:44 <karafruit> oh it wasn't mentioned that that behavior was only in 3.7
18:44 <aosdict> hmm my 3.7 game also doesn't respect m,
18:45 <aosdict> unless it was a recent commit and I simply haven't built with it
18:45 <ais523> bleh, doens't wokr in 3.7 either
18:45 <ais523> this is a really old feature, it probably broke at some point
18:45 <[> define really old
18:45 <[> did it exist in 3.4.3? did it exist in 3.6?
18:46 <aosdict> you could git bisect it to find out
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18:46 * aosdict gives [ the tsurugi of muramasa
18:46 <karafruit> hahahahaha
18:46 <ais523> doens't work in 3.4.3 either
18:46 <ais523> I wonder where I got this idea from
18:46 <ais523> did I hallucinate a NetHack feature, somehow?
18:47 <aosdict> when you started talking about it, I assumed 3.7 because 3.7 adds a ton of m prefix behavior
18:47 <ais523> <NetHackWiki> You can press m, to pick up items off the floor using a menu, even if you're using menustyle:traditional. 
18:47 <ais523> ah, I just misremembered how it work
18:47 <ais523> * works
18:49 <ais523> "force menu" but actually not always
18:51 <tinklebear> aosdict: the no-putting things in concept is clear. but what about stoning monsters carrying inventory?
18:52 <tinklebear> *clear to me, and thank you
18:58 <Furey> i have done "ascended without ever having a non-empty container in inventory", so i was using stashes. it was miserable.
19:00 <K2> it'd be simpler to create a 'never used a portable container' conduct
19:00 <K2> it's not practical to tote around a large box /chest
19:01 <ais523> K2: are you sure? :-D
19:01 <K2> yes. if you want to be impractical, that's on you :)
19:02 <ais523> it may be more practical than not having a way to protect scrolls and potions
19:02 <K2> could tweak the conduct to be 'never used a container in inventory'
19:02 <ais523> then people drop their BoH to loot it
19:02 <ais523> people have ascended like that due to not knowing that bags were appliable
19:02 <tinklebear> K2, large box is doable, mounted with no suit of armor
19:03 <tinklebear> (for example)
19:03 <K2> YANI: increase weight of boxes to 10,000 aum
19:03 <K2> :P
19:03 <K2> then everyone will poly into nymphs
19:04 <K2> so, we're back to 'never used a container in inventory'
19:04 <Furey> large box in inventory is not THAT bad, i've gone a long time with a large box with a valkyrie or samurai when i hadn't found a bag yet
19:04 <K2> ais523 you could slap a flag on a portable container
19:04 <K2> if it were ever carried in inventory, flag is set
19:05 <K2> if someone then dropped said container to loot it, conduct broken
19:05 <tinklebear> are statues exempt, K2?
19:05 <ais523> K2: how is that usefully different from "no carrying containers"?
19:05 <K2> probably shouldnt be. i could see you giving all your shit to your pet newt then stoning it
19:06 <tinklebear> :D
19:06 <K2> see!
19:07 <K2> ais523 guess you could take it that far. cant even pick one up
19:07 <K2> it's not like you'd accidentally pick up a bag or a chest, useless you have some goofy autopickup rule enabled
19:07 <K2> but that's on you
19:07 <K2> *unless
19:08 <ais523> "no carrying containers" is the simplest definition, I think
19:08 <ais523> it allows container stashing but not moving containers to an optimal stashing location
19:09 <K2> yeah
19:09 <K2> that sounds good
19:11 <Furey> sounds okay to me, it's just a little worse than my definition
19:12 <Furey> i shouldn't say "worse", rather, it's a little more strict than the informal conduct i followed a couple of times
19:15 <aosdict> tinklebear: I don't see how stoning monsters with inventory matters here. that doesn't count as putting items in a container
19:16 <aosdict> unless you're suggesting evading the conduct by getting monsters to pick stuff up, stoning them, and then carrying around the statues to break later?
19:16 <aosdict> ais523: the problem with "no carrying containers" is you have to do something about archeologist and rogue
19:17 <aosdict> a birth option is too much, but also 3.4.3 unofficial conduct style "drop it immediately" is obnoxious to track
19:18 <Furey> we've got birth options for permahallu and deaf and pettype:none, i don't think one more birth option per conduct is too much
19:18 <ais523> aosdict: make it no picking up containers and no using them in inventory
19:19 <ais523> that way the starting container isn't usable except as a placeable static stash
19:24 <tinklebear> aosdict: "unless you're suggesting evading the conduct" <-- whata strange way to spell "complying with"
19:26 <[> 19:05 <@K2> if someone then dropped said container to loot it, conduct broken
19:26 <[> does this include looting by gelcube?
19:26 <[> or looting by force bolt in the case of statues
19:28 <[> autopickup is enabled by default, so by default you would accidentally pick up bags and chests
19:28 <K2> for sanity sake, prob just keep it to actual containers
19:28 <K2> noisytoot, it's on the player to adjust their config
19:29 <K2> autopickup is entirely within the players control
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19:30 <K2> going back to gelcube express or statue - you'd have to go to an awful lot of trouble to use either as a viable portable container
19:30 <K2> less practical thatn carrying a large box
19:32 <tinklebear> fair to say so, I think
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19:56 <aosdict> it would be more practical if you could cast vomit on your pet gelcube
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