00:00 Yeah a lot of stuff that happens in grunthack can happen in vanilla, but just seems to happen more often in gh. 00:01 Maybe it just *seems* to happen more due to the combination of other evil stuff. 00:03 EPI: the Big Room can have polytraps. Multiple polytraps. 00:04 is that theoretically possible in vanilla? 00:08 yes 00:08 not sure why it wouldn't be 00:09 I used a bigroom polytrap in my 3.4.3 paci 00:10 polytraps may actually be less dangerous in bigrooms because monsters are less likely to stumble across them and the player is more likely to be aware of where they are 00:10 ais523: you would still have to deal with the shitty eat prompts and such in a potential 3.7 windowport, right? 00:10 since that is up to the game engine rather than windowport 00:11 possibly, it's also possible I could change the game engine to make that more flexible 00:11 so that different windowports could do it differently 00:11 mhm 00:11 hmm 00:12 apparently 3.6.1 config got sections now 00:12 kind of 00:12 not really similar to how ini sections work 00:13 hm 00:13 I should add + and - for pageup/pagedn unless it clashes with something else, in windows 00:13 lack of it drove me crazy for a bit after I had played ADOM for a bit lol 00:14 since it uses +/- 00:14 it also happens to be much easier to reach than <> 00:14 on this kbd 00:15 FIQ: + selects all spellbooks, - deselects all items on something (I forget whether it affects the page or the whole menu) 00:15 hm 00:15 :( 00:15 neither of those bindings is completely sacred, you might have to move things around a bit though 00:15 I guess not then 00:15 well + being spellbooks would be silly to change 00:16 unless you had an entirely different UI for selecting items of a given type 00:17 sure 00:17 but changing that UI significantly just to make +- pageup/dn would be silly 00:17 IMO 00:18 ais523: is there a simple way to disable the desync detector? 00:19 I think you could just comment out the call to it, I'm not 100% sure where it is though 00:19 it runs in replaymode when going forward using commandmode which is a bit redundant 00:19 well it'd detect a desync in the replay 00:19 (sure, until I messed with it, it only ever went 1 turn forward but still...) 00:19 ais523: except it doesn't 00:20 since it would read/write an entirely new save 00:20 and doesn't read from the existing save 00:20 desyncs are not detected until it encounters something unexpected 00:20 and yet it runs the detector 00:21 well, is it detecting a desync within the turn, or against the diff in the save file? 00:21 if it's within the turn, it seems a bit pointless 00:21 yeah 00:21 that is what it is doing 00:37 [gh] Tangles (Mon Elf Mal Neu), 8559 points, T:3943, killed by a wood nymph's bolt of fire 00:37 sigh 00:50 -!- Grasshopper has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:50 -!- greqrg has quit [Quit: Disconnected] 01:40 -!- LarienTelrunya has joined #hardfought 01:54 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 01:54 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 02:01 -!- noty has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.9] 02:18 !tell K2 Woohoo, SLEX 2.0.5 is now ready for the server *bundlebundlebundle* (your bundle monster is also in there now!) :) It breaks saves, obviously; the version at commit e442590 (current master) is it. If it's not too much work, can you install it on hdf? Thanks! ;) 02:18 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 02:19 LarienTelrunya: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/example-diagonalobans.txt (the goal squares aren't shown because the generator doesn't generate them yet; imagine they're behind the player, to the south) 02:20 hmm, those somehow seem familiar? 02:20 perhaps, it's a set I generated a while ago 02:20 they're fiendishly hard :D 02:20 so you might have seen them back then, or even if you didn't, someone else might have given you a copy 02:21 and yes, many people (including me) find diagonaloban much harder than regular sokoban 02:22 the main visual difference is that diagonalobans typically have a really high boulder density 02:22 and often it's hard to figure out how to extract the boulders at all, especially at the start of the level 02:24 -!- Crawldragon has joined #hardfought 02:25 yeah, that sample set always involves arranging as many boulders as possible at the top without getting any stuck, and only then the bottom ones are capable of reaching the target 02:26 right, that's the principle on which they're generated 02:27 I assume a "complete" sokoban generator would disguise it a bit better rather than them all looking the same 02:29 -!- ais523 has quit [] 02:57 Evil Patch idea: inspired by that one King's Quest game, letting some seemingly irrelevant monster on, say, dungeon level 8, die, will cause the portal on the Plane of Fire (the one that leads to Water) to not exist and triggers an archonstorm 2000 turns after you entered Fire. And of course the game never lets you know it became unwinnable either. 02:58 EPI continuation: make that monster be a woodchuck on the Oracle level. You have to kill the Oracle before it kills the woodchuck, or the plane of fire becomes the aforementioned kill screen. 02:58 EPI addendum: and if the Oracle is still alive 5000 turns into the game, the woodchuck is automatically killed even if you're not on the level at that time. 03:01 morning 03:02 !lastgame bug_sniper 03:02 bug_sniper: No last game for bug_sniper 03:02 !lastgame 03:02 bug_sniper: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/R/Raisse/nhdev/dumplog/1504505863.nhdev.txt 03:02 !lastgame bugsniper 03:02 LarienTelrunya: https://www.hardfought.org/userdata/b/bugsniper/slex/dumplog/1502596507.slex.txt 03:02 thanks 03:05 hi LarienTelrunya and people 03:06 yo FIQ, what's up? 03:06 not much 03:07 been trying to look into operation Make Replaymode Not Slow 03:07 not doing much progress 03:08 however I did get a proper performance test of nitrohack replaymode as a baseline 03:08 it takes 1s to playback an entire game from turn 1 to 33433 03:08 ah I read you somehow lost 10k turns since there was no checkpointing or something? 03:09 compared to this, it takes NH4 33s to playback using commands from turn 1 to 104xx-something 03:09 no that is fine 03:09 bsically 03:09 the game checkpoints with binary saves every now and then 03:09 but the save I was testing with was unusually annoying to load because it took forever 03:10 like... 20s? 03:10 anyway, turns out the reason for this was that the last checkpoint was almost 10k earlier 03:10 so it had to playback *using diffs* for almost 10k turns 03:10 ah, but it did load fine? 03:11 and yes, playback using commands is actually slower currently 03:11 but it has obvious rooms for major improvements 03:11 LarienTelrunya: yes, NH4 saves don't break down generally 03:12 and when they do, they're generally always recoverable 03:12 I don't think fiqhack has had a single save not possible to recover yet 03:12 ah but they often require manual recovery, I think I still have half a dozen broken ones on my fourk account on ascrun 03:12 I assume nethack4 has, since it has been around longer, and for some time when the save system was still experimental 03:13 last time a fiqhack game needed a manual recovery was over 3 months ago 03:13 there was some annoying bug that caused it 03:13 but I tracked it down 03:13 so it should be ok now in that regard 03:14 of course, if nethack encounters a panic 03:14 or segfault 03:14 it requires dev intervention 03:14 but that isn't really the same thing 03:14 why do nh4oids not adopt the nh3 "automatic recovery" system for segfaults? 03:14 is it out of fear of segfault scumming? :P 03:15 i.e. using a reproducible segfault to "cheat away" bad results from e.g. wishing for a stack of items and only getting one? 03:15 I suppose it could have a recovery mechanism that automatically rewinds 5 turns if a segfault happens, on next start 03:16 but then the save would need to be backed up for dev investigation 03:19 jonadab: would that be a good idea? 03:22 FIQ: YASI: add map amnesia to the list of properties obtainable from potions of wonder. It deletes the map of the current level every turn. 03:22 no 03:24 why not? it balances the fact that you can get uberintrinsics like magic resistance and reflection :D 03:24 it is already balanced 03:24 you can become slow 03:25 polymorphing 03:25 conflict 03:25 fixed abilities 03:25 and jonadab can become clairvoyant 03:26 heh, once I got intrinsic conflict in slex on dlvl15 by eating a ring - it was unintentional and my powerful dragon became a fierce machine of hulking death, but I ended up ascending that game :P 03:26 conflict is very useful! 03:32 LarienTelrunya: you should add the cat lord to slex 03:32 whose level is based on how many cats you killed that game 03:33 gah! Bismas Thokup and his stOOpid cats! :P 03:33 hah 03:33 thomas biskup 03:33 -!- lorimer has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:33 * LarienTelrunya rummages through her bag of holding for a scroll of genocide labeled ONE DAY TEAM LOWERCASE F WILL BE GENOCIDED 03:33 The creator of ADOM did that on purpose to make people angry! :P 03:34 Uh, the cat lord thingy? 03:35 speaking of which, Elona has a special mode where killing a cat gives -50 karma, which is similarly silly but thankfully completely optional 03:36 also, some cat fetishist programmer made it so that eating a cat corpse gives -5 karma for no apparent reason 03:36 it should give -10 karma 03:36 and there are statues of cats and all NPCs in Elona constantly talk about cats :P Noa and his weird cat fetish! 03:36 I like cats 03:37 I like spiders. Shall I make it so that killing a spider in slex increases divine anger by one, and eating one causes smiting? :P 03:37 today I visited my cousin's hours and I now have cathair all over my shirt 03:37 *house 03:39 you've made spiders the best monster type to find, since they spawn with something on top of them 03:40 Garter snakes spawn like that in vanilla, right? 03:41 Mandevil: But only if they are generated while the level is made. In slex, concealing monsters will get items at all times. 03:41 -!- NeroOneTrueKing_ has joined #hardfought 03:42 LarienTelrunya: So revgenocide will create them with items? 03:42 Yeah. 03:45 so that's one way to get items late in the game once the drop rate goes down 03:45 -!- NeroOneTrueKing has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:45 heh, their generation rate goes down the same way of course :D 03:46 I am allergic to cats 03:46 so you revgeno spiders and get fewer spiders? 03:46 nah, the items they hide under are then replaced by gold pieces more often 03:46 which they can still hide under but are probably less useful than other items ;) 04:06 aosdict: "Water nymphs may create a pool on their spot when killed. The player's items fall into it, of course." 04:07 you forgot the EPI prefix 04:09 EPI: lava nymphs, the perfect thing to evaporate and get those water pools out of the way 04:10 aosdict: I considered making speed boots grant the intrinsic speed only, and same with the temporary boosts, and make artifact speed boots that gives the current extrinsic speed 04:26 -!- elenmirie has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:26 -!- elenmirie has joined #hardfought 04:26 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v elenmirie] by ChanServ 04:28 !tell K2 actually, I added a few more commits; the current master is the version ready for the server 04:28 Will do, LarienTelrunya! 04:39 [gh] Tangles (Mon Hum Mal Cha), 10000 points, T:5403, killed by a leocrotta 04:44 -!- Crawldragon has quit [Quit: If beer is liquid bread, what is liquid peanut butter?] 04:58 [nd] Raisse (Cav Dwa Fem Law) rejected atheism with a prayer, on T:3107 05:00 [nd] Raisse (Cav Dwa Fem Law) had Demonbane bestowed upon her by Anu, on T:3315 05:01 argh I'm always making that mistake 05:08 [nd] Raisse (Cav Dwa Fem Law) had Demonbane bestowed upon her by Anu, on T:3085 05:10 going back in time?! 05:10 savestate cheating? :D 05:20 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:55 . 05:55 K2: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2017-09-04 02:18 EDT: Woohoo, SLEX 2.0.5 is now ready for the server *bundlebundlebundle* (your bundle monster is also in there now!) :) It breaks saves, obviously; the version at commit e442590 (current master) is it. If it's not too much work, can you install it on hdf? Thanks! ;) 05:55 K2: Message from LarienTelrunya at 2017-09-04 04:28 EDT: actually, I added a few more commits; the current master is the version ready for the server 05:55 ok 05:55 hi K2! 05:56 hi! 05:56 Hello K2, Welcome to #hardfought 05:56 i'll put .5 up today 05:56 slex 2.0.5 is ready, current master is at commit 81cf424 :) 05:56 maybe I'll make a few more commits later, but they will be non-savebreaking, obviously 05:57 mmmmk 05:57 what I really should do is add rumors about the new features 05:59 but the current version is ready to go live, I'll only make non-savebreak commits for a while now 05:59 ok 05:59 i'll get to it here in a bit 06:00 just got to work, settling in for a double shift. federal holiday today so no one is here, i'll have ample time 06:00 heh, I'm alone in my office today as well, although I don't think it's a holiday in Germany 06:04 race/roles is partially done for slex (beholder bot) 06:04 there's still a LOT to add to make it fully functional 06:04 damn you and your bazillion races/roles :P 06:06 heh, I wanted to add the tracer/feminist/gang scholar roles but didn't get to it due to time constraints and missing frameworks for them 06:06 they will be in a future version though :D 06:07 hah 06:42 [gh] Tangles (Val Dwa Fem Law) had invisible long sword bestowed upon her by Tyr, on T:1925 06:43 Invisible long sword? 06:43 -10 to-hit? 06:43 Unless sinv. 06:51 Yeah I don't know. Probably a long sword of invisibility. 06:51 gh will randomly generate items as invisible 06:51 Hmm nope. 06:51 they typically do not confer invis 06:53 K2: I was under the impression that invisible wands, rings and cloaks were usually invisibility 06:53 but not this sword apparently. 06:53 I wonder if it has any other redeeming qualities. 06:54 I had an invisible boulder in an earlier game :) 06:54 Tangles: yeah that's also usually the case (same with potions of invis and spellbook of invis) 06:54 but not always 06:54 hah invis boulder 06:55 ooh it's thirsty! 06:55 The invisible long sword draws the life from the jackal! You kill the jackal! 06:55 \o/ 06:55 thats asc kit worthy wooo 06:55 Does that mean it will attack peacefuls like stormbringer? 06:55 Need to be careful around this priest if so. 06:56 Hmm no it doesn't. good. 06:56 nope 06:56 only stormbringer acts that way 06:59 yeah. There's lots of peaceful gnomes and dwarves about, so it was easy to test. 07:01 Evil Patch idea: the wand of wishing on the Castle level is not in a container, but spawns on the floor of the throne room. Add 5 guaranteed rust monsters and 10 guaranteed blue dragons. 07:16 the wand used to be on the ground without a container to protect it 07:24 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 07:24 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 07:32 [gh] Tangles (Val Dwa Fem Law) retrieved the Mine's End luckstone, on T:3595 07:41 [gh] k2 (Arc Dwa Mal Law), 1281 points, T:5091, killed by a dwarvish soldier's crossbow bolt of fire 07:47 K2: what's the status of the slex update? I hope there are no compile errors this time? 07:49 sometime today 07:49 okay :) 08:12 morn 08:19 lol dammit. 08:19 R) [ a +0 helm of opposite alignment and power (being worn 08:19 you'll have to take it off for the quest 08:22 Yeah. I figured it was worth the risk since I have not bought protection yet. 08:28 Tangles the chaotic valkyrie 08:34 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law) made her first wish - "blessed +2 silver dragon scale mail", on T:2056 08:38 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:42 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law) had Excalibur thrown at her by some watery tart, on T:2687 08:48 -!- LarienTelrunya has quit [Quit: This is a styx river, stepping on which causes contamination. Really do it? (y/n)] 08:59 FIQ: Not anymore. It rusted away. 09:00 Tangles the rusty valkyrie 09:01 Yeah. At least I can carry all my scrolls and potions now because they all stack nicely. 09:02 (because they are all blank/clear from falling in water so many times) 09:03 though now I have this: F) ( an uncursed large box named box of holding :( 09:04 haha 09:04 sorry 09:04 Tangles: use ctrl+directions to walk in mines safely 09:05 Yeah... or I could just not walk into the pools. It's not like I don't know they are there. 09:05 I just need to suck less. 09:05 well I mean 09:05 bleh 09:05 the ctrl+direction thing is why I find K2's paranoid mindset silly 09:05 because it's so easy to defeat 09:05 so it's just annoying 09:06 new gh feature for 0.2.3: ctrl+direction will now walk into water 09:06 if name == FIQ 09:06 and if k2.mood == evil 09:06 heh 09:07 which is an alias for rn2(50) 09:07 so amy changed something with new slex version, i cant get it to compile fully 09:07 (true 49/50 of the time) 09:09 jonadab: seriously though 09:09 you should add shallow water to the mines 09:09 it makes flavour sense which I think was sgrunt's original idea 09:09 no matter how much K2 wants to twist it 09:09 it makes *sense* 09:09 it's just evil 09:11 FIQ: Actually, deep water would be less evil in NH4 than in GruntHack. 09:12 Because of UI differences. 09:12 Thhough requiring a pick to traverse Mines levels is slightly evil, since the Mines is often where players GET a pick. 09:14 I suggested shallow water for 4k 09:14 since it has it 09:15 Sure. 09:15 Could do a mixture of them, actually. 09:17 FIQ, jonadab: do you think the system of tiered spellbook appearances for narrowing them down without price-id would also work for scrolls? In this case, the length of the label would roughly correlate with price. 09:17 not sure 09:18 aosdict: Possibly? 09:18 Are you thinking the number of "words" in the scroll name indicates price bracket, or what? 09:18 The list of names might have to be changed. 09:18 s/names/labels/ 09:19 Just the string length. And it wouldn't be a rigid correlation.. 09:19 s/.././ 09:19 Currently, I classify scrolls into the following price brackets. 1. Identify. 2. Light. 3. Enchant Weapon. 4. 80zm. 5. unimportant. 6. 300zm. 09:20 Scrolls have the same problem as spellbooks, no way to informally ID them except price ID and monster use 09:20 (Light is also unimportant, but it's useful to distinguish it from enchant weapon.) 09:20 200zm has taming 09:20 it is very important 09:20 and in 4k it also has flood 09:20 (Because enchant weapon can be improtant early.) 09:20 both useful 09:20 Well, and read-testing. But that's not a good idea 09:21 in fiqhack you can throw them to a monster and see what happens 09:21 FIQ: The 100/150/200zm scrolls aren't worth trying to narrow down based on price, IMO. I just wait until I can formally ID all my stuff, for those. 09:21 Same as potions. 09:21 there is no 150zm scrolls 09:21 Ah. 09:21 potions can be safely quaff-IDed 09:21 100/200 then. 09:21 quaffing unidentified potions is a good way to get 389287497 turns of hallucination. 09:21 And then you die. 09:21 worst is hallu and sickness (but the latter can be trivially IDed with ammo) 09:22 yeah 09:22 allthough I don't consider hallu detrimental 09:22 just very, very annoying 09:22 and it last for half a century 09:22 It makes you kill your pet. 09:22 but generally I just lock myself in a closet 09:22 and 500s 09:22 (That's the one and only way in which Brogue hallu is not as bad: you don't kill your pet.) 09:23 (In all other ways, Brogue hallu is as bad or worse.) 09:23 in 4k you can id hallu though 09:23 Being locked in a closet with a stack of food would help. 09:23 so it is nice 09:23 At Delphi, yeah. 09:23 so once you are past oracle 09:23 Which, that's a side effect. 09:23 you can safely quaff-ID 09:23 The reason I put hallu at Delphi was for Sokoban haters. 09:23 just make sure there's no monster next to you 09:24 in case you get paralysis 09:24 sleeping is ok, you wake up if hit 09:24 But since having it there makes quaff ID less scary post-delphi, I should probably also shorten the duration of hallu from quaffing, to make it more usable as a utility. 09:24 Before you get a unihorn. 09:27 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law), 5011 points, T:3645, killed by a priest of Odin, while paralyzed by a monster 09:37 woo found a bag! 09:37 of tricks 09:38 [nd] munterplant (Val Hum Fem Law), 1334 points, T:924, killed by a Mordor orc 09:45 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 09:45 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 09:45 floating eye dropped a blindfold, but not a corpse :/ 09:46 blindfold is useful for the next floating eye! 10:00 True! (except that I already had one) :/ 10:02 ...and there's another eye! (and a corpse this time) :D 10:02 !who 10:02 K2: NeroOneTrueKing [dnh] Tangles [gh] elenmirie [nd] 10:07 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:10 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 10:10 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 10:20 jonadab: so should I suggest to devteam to make CM a misc item instead o defensive 10:20 or do you think it would be a bad suggestion 10:20 I don't want to clutter their buglist with stuff so probably not a good idea to suggest 10:20 I think it has major balance implications. 10:21 So should not happen on the 3.6 branch. 10:21 oh I know 10:21 jonadab: you mean like the elbereth changes? 10:21 that did happen on 3.6? 10:21 and the speed system fixes 10:21 Well, the most disruptive ones of those were done on the 3.6 branch before 3.6.0 was released. 10:21 and nerfing quest artifact invoking 10:22 -!- mode/Beholder [+Zi] by Beholder 10:22 -!- card.freenode.net changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ - public irc logs available on website ¤ Public NetHack server - ssh nethack@hardfought.org ¤ GruntHack 0.2.2 is now live 10:22 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v Beholder] by ChanServ 10:22 But they take things back toward 3.4.3, IMO. 10:22 !ping 10:22 K2: Pong! 10:22 A little. 10:23 jonadab: thing is 10:23 I have the feeling that the change has a chance to actually be applied 10:23 and it would be fun to see how people deal with it :3 10:23 Long-term, it would probably be a good thing. Short-term, it would be disruptive. 10:23 And would necessitate additional balance changes, likely. 10:24 mostly because apparently at least some DT people doesn't know how muse works 10:24 monsters summoning allies does seem like a more miscellaneous strategy than a purely defensive one 10:24 aosdict: yep 10:24 but do you realize what impact this would have? 10:24 -!- K2 changed the topic on #hardfought to: Welcome to Hardfought - https://www.hardfought.org/ - public irc logs available on website ¤ Public NetHack server - ssh nethack@hardfought.org ¤ GruntHack 0.2.2 and Slash'EM Extended 2.0.5 are now live 10:24 if not -- play fiqhack some time 10:24 aosdict: It makes sense. I don't disagree with it. I just think it's the kind of thing you do on trunk only, and then rebalance around it. 10:25 while technically it's not a misc item in fiqhack since fiqhack rewrites muse completely 10:25 it has similar impact 10:25 as if it was misc on vanilla 10:26 jonadab: I just end up getting this evil grin at the thought of the DT making that change to 3.6.1 :P 10:27 kinda like kaen having xray vision and killing your boulders 10:27 aosdict: anyway, to clarify 10:27 after fiqhack's muse rewrite 10:28 I ended up nerfing wands of create monster after some complaints 10:28 it wasn't enough 10:28 so I reduced their spawn rate 10:28 to 1/9 rather than 1/3 of the time they would otherwise get the scroll 10:29 create monster spam is not a too rare sight in fiqhack 10:30 Yeah. 10:30 sure, if you change the strategy so monsters generally have more opportunities to use it, the frequency of monsters getting them should be reduced by about that much 10:31 (perhaps wands of create monster could be defensive items, but that's not really consistent) 10:31 that is silly 10:31 it should be misc 10:34 -!- raisse has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:44 [nd] elenmirie (Mon Hum Fem Neu) completed Sokoban, on T:8597 10:54 [gh] Tangles (Val Dwa Fem Law) completed Sokoban, on T:11335 11:02 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 11:02 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 11:06 -!- raisse has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:06 -!- raisse has joined #hardfought 11:06 -!- mode/#hardfought [+v raisse] by ChanServ 11:11 jonadab: here's a possible combination of scroll labels related to price: https://pastebin.com/7tgYgvmi 11:20 -!- lorimer has joined #hardfought 11:24 Hmm. 11:25 The code that does the shuffling would need to be changed, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It could likely use an update. (Fourk already had to update it to get it to correctly handle extra appearances for potions, books, and rings.) 11:26 It's not clear to me that VENZAR BORGAVE, for instance, is really that much longer than LEP GEX VEN ZEA. 11:26 But that's a niggle. 11:28 -!- noty has joined #hardfought 11:28 It's notable that the cheap category (label less than 8 letters) can all be safely read-identified, and if known blessed this can be done without significant waste, with some preparation. 11:28 Yes, since this is a tentative addition to tiered spellbook descriptions, the shuffle code would have to be changed anyway. 11:28 (You risk wasting a scroll of light.) 11:29 Oh, good point about the spellbook shuffle. 11:29 Yes, that too would require changes to the shuffle code. Similar ones. 11:30 IMO, this would be a major change to the ID game, because it allows the identification process to be bootstrapped without a shop. 11:30 If you read-ID the cheap scrolls until you get Identify, you can bypass price ID entirely. 11:30 Another way to do this would be to widen the bands, so if you get MAPIRO MAHAMA DIROMAT or XIXAXA XOXAXA XUXAXA you know it's not identify, and it probably isn't a price 100 11:31 but you can't be sure whether it's 200 or 300 11:32 I should probably mention that Fourk made a different change to make bootstrapping price ID easier: barring bones, Minetown is guaranteed to have either a book store (College Town) or a general store (otherwise) in Fourk. 11:32 So you can always price-check scrolls at Minetown in Fourk, barring bones. 11:33 (And Minetown bones will only load if you set the bones option to "even on special levels", which can also give you e.g. Sokobones.) 11:34 One could argue that's even more powerful for bootstrapping the ID game, since it identifies identify unambiguously 11:34 But you have to get to Minetown. 11:35 NetHack 3.6.1-dev updated 11:35 Also, my change doesn't _bypass_ price ID, just makes it possible. 11:35 So the two changes are fundamentally different IMO. 11:35 Not sure which is better. 11:35 Though they solve at least one problem in common. 11:36 [gh] Tangles (Val Dwa Fem Law) wished for "blessed greased fireproof +5 dragonhide cloak of magic resistance and reflection named YASD is just around the corner", on T:12017 11:37 I don't know, I'm not sure I like the idea of making shops be a necessary part of the ID game, since as FIQ noted, some players consider price id to be one of the worst mechanics in the game. 11:37 hi 11:37 Hello FIQ, Welcome to #hardfought 11:37 or, well, not _necessary_, but very helpful 11:37 yes 11:37 I find it a very bad mechanic 11:37 I'm sufficiently experienced/spoiled that I use it myself without too much hassle 11:38 but it's... not a good thing 11:40 One thing is, though, I greatly dislike the way Brogue requires you to use-identify everything, and there's no safe way to do it really. 11:40 aosdict: at one point I considered "solving" it by fuzzing the price enough for it to be useless aside from "cheap means this, expensive means this" 11:40 I _like_ the fact that NetHack's ID game gives you lots of interesting ways to ID things. 11:40 So I think price ID as a mechanic should stay in the game. 11:40